Téma: MONDRIAN

26.9.2005 |  Jan Neutelings, j.r.
 
Greetings to the architects of this building. I like it very much, ya know what i mean :)


::Pridať diskusný príspevok::

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Od: JimmiXS
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Od: JimmiXS
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Od: Andrew
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Dátum: 19.11.2015
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Dátum: 19.11.2015
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
Od: Nevaeh
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
Od: Jorge
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Od: Vincent
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Dátum: 18.11.2015
Od: Donny
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Dátum: 17.11.2015
Od: Jerold
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Od: Zoey
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Dátum: 16.11.2015
Od: Carlos
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Dátum: 16.11.2015
Od: Ervin
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Dátum: 16.11.2015
Od: Jocelyn
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Dátum: 13.11.2015
Od: Stanley
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Dátum: 13.11.2015
Od: Larry
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Od: Zoey
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Dátum: 12.11.2015
Od: Thomas
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Dátum: 12.11.2015
Od: Royce
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Dátum: 12.11.2015
Od: Louis
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Od: Bradley
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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Od: h8bqrm2Et4
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Od: BM491xAxj3gO
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Dátum: 4.11.2006
Od: martin
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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Dátum: 30.11.2005
Od: Mato
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
suhlasim, je to prinajlepsom priemer

Dátum: 13.11.2005
Od: Jozko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Ked sa na Slovensku podari postavit slusnu stavbu je z toho halo.Nebali by byt taketo stavby priemerom???

Dátum: 7.11.2005
Od: XXXX kolki?
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Kedze som sam/a navrhla temu o kopii kopie. len malu poznamku k O. Stefik.
Ja vobec nie som postmoderna generacia. Spravanie na zmyslanie architektov - najma na Slovensku je take, ze aj tí, ci vysli prave z akejkolvek skoly si narokuju na "absolutnu pravdu" a spravaju sa ako "moderni umelci" v case svojho najvacsieho rozkvetu. Boze a este ta jesitnost. A este to neustale stuchanie sa v tom istom probleme...
Spasou architektury je, ze sa neda vytvarat bez konceptu. Ale ako mozu vznikat tvorive koncepty, ked architekti sa : nevzdelavaju, necitaju ... atd.
Kedze diskusia je o Mondrianovi: otazka znie - kolki z kritikov v tento diskusii stavbu Mondrian videli na vlastne oci? Nemohla by byt tato otazka ako mini anketa na uvodnej strane archinetu?

Dátum: 7.11.2005
Od: andrej
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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Dátum: 6.11.2005
Od: daniel gercak
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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Dátum: 6.11.2005
Od: ondrej stefik
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Dátum: 6.11.2005
Od: anarch
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Dátum: 5.11.2005
Od: misko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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prekvapenie pre mna je, ze je to konecne zavan cerstveho vzduchu, mlady atelier.
stalo sa zvykom pridelovat ceny tym istym architektom, ci uz boli stavby kvalitne alebo podpriemerne.
teraz sa to snad meni...

Dátum: 4.11.2005
Od: aaale
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
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Dátum: 4.11.2005
Od: Marty
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Priznam sa, nerozumiem, o com sa tu dokola bavite a v com "punker trafil kliniec po hlavicke!" ako tu spomina moderator Janko. Suhlasim s "one", ze architektonicka tvorba je zalozena na vzajomnej inspiracii architektov, selekcii prvkov/konceptu ktore ma oslovia a ich posunuti a rozvinuti dalej. Odkedy prisli na napad stavat obydlia medzi styrmi stenami, architektura je o evolucii v ktorej sa prvky prelinaju, odpozeravaju, rozvijaju. Je malo tvorivych architektov, ktori by pri prvych skicach a zhromazdovani napadov nesiahli po architektonickych casopisoch a publikaciach za inspiraciou. Ani celebrity ako Gehry s jeho rozsliapanymi husenicami a Libeskind s jeho opitymi murarmi netvoria inak, navazuju a nechaju sa inspirovat, hoci maju k dispozicii rozpocty o ktorych sa nam vacsine ani nesniva.
Princip komercneho parteru, striedmej zakladne so standardnymi bytmi a rozohraneho "klobuka" s luxusnymi bytmi je tu na zapade vyuzivany uz dlho, ani Neutelings & Riedijk nie su celkom originalni. Alexy a Klimkova pri Mondriane celkom iste cerpali inspiraciu zo spominaneho pomerne znameho holandskeho vzoru, ale takisto sa odvolavaju na holandskeho maliara po ktorom je budova nazvana (zeby aj toho vykradli ?). Nechcem hodnotit vysledok ich snazenia (hodnotenie kvality architektury je tema sama o sebe) ani ich narok uchadzat sa o ceny, ale nesuhlasim, ze vykradli kopirajt kohosi ineho. A myslim si tiez, ze je skoda, ak dobre napady zakapu pri jednom projekte.

Dátum: 4.11.2005
Od: ondrej stefik
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
mondrian barak je fakt nic extra, ak nie tuctovy. napriek tomu je jemne nestandardny, co je tiez
istym suosobom prinosne. avsak kontakt s jazerom za nula, dynamika farebneho vzoru primitivna ze
hanba, parter o nicom. a este to s najvacsou drzostou nazvu ze mondrian. nemaju o abstrakcii, a
mondrianovej obzvlast ani paru. to nie je vykradanie, ale degeneracia. a velmi nezodpovedna
drzost.

ska... tak to je na inu diskusiu, ale ktokolvek kto byva napriklad v bratislave, a vidi kolko
ciernych stavieb, a kolko odpornej a nekvalitnej ani nie architektury sa stavia, tak nema pochyb o
absolutnej nekompetencii SKA. to nie je organizacia ktora by radikalne hajila zaujmy o kvalitu
socialneho (spolocneho) priestoru. niekto povie ze to nie je napln SKA, ale to neobstoji: mala by
byt ! o sutaziach, tak to ani nema zmysel rozoberat, ja osobne sa ani sutazi moc nezucastnijem,
skuor hladam klientov osobne, a cez "nahodu". to je viac urcitee ako falosne verejne obstaravania.
komora nema ziadne paky, nezakroci, nekrici. ak hej, tak este som to nepocul. teda bud som hluchy,
alebo je fakt ticho. sak kazdy pako dnes je v telke a robi medialny tlak, stacia primitivne
zamienky, tak preco realne problemy nie su vnasane do medialneho priestoru na reflexiu, namiesto
pseudoproblemov. ?

a ze "everything...copy of copy", tak to muoze tvrdit len stratena pomylena postmoderna hlava,
ktora nechape samu seba a nevnima dynamiku paradoxu svojho bytia a existencie. musime vediet v
akej mierke su nase tvrdenia relevantne, odkial pokial su urcite "pravdy" platne. relativita plati
aj pre relativitu samotnu. uz sme po postmoderne. my nie sme postmoderna generacia, to si prosim
uvedomme.

je pravda, avsak platna nielen pre architektov, ze ludia dnes nevydrzia citat. jednoducho nemaju
ani dostatocnu sirku pozornosti (attention span), aby precitali zopar desiatok stranok a udrzali
synteticky vyznam pocas tak kratkej doby. nakukat obrazky, tie potom v hlave zkolazovat, domutovat
a popliest tak ze ani sami nevedia odkial maju inspiraciu, a potom to akoze objavia.

kreativita je radikalna a vyzaduje aj spocivanie v nevedeni. a kecy o tom ze tu vsetko bolo dalej
omielaju ti co nevidia svoje svetlo (a casto ani to vonkajsie). "nic tu este nebolo" alebo "vsetko
je nove" je ekvivalentne koherentny koncept. az dialektika medzi "everything...a copy of copy" a
"everything...new" umoznuje najst aktualne "miesta" kreativity.

a neutelingov barak bol podla mna kvalitnejsi archi-tektonicky ako tento falosny mondrian. mozno
su dnes kvalitnejsie materialy atd, ale architektonicka kvalita priestoru nespociva primarne v
materiale ci detaile.

a ludia serte na anonymitu, coho sa bojite ? ze vas bude niekto perzekuovat za nazor ? ak to nie
je opravnene, tak o co tu ide ?

Dátum: 4.11.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
ING STEEL bol len priklad, ze mame na Slovensku aj dobre stavby - nemal som na mysli cisto obytne. Aj rodinne domy mame viacere lepsie ako ten, co vyhral. Lenze ked sa autor sam neprihlasi (a prihlasit sa sam znamena byt presvedceny o svojej jedinecnosti), potom sa jeho dielo neposudzuje...to je velka skoda, trpi tym kvalita.

Dátum: 3.11.2005
Od: lorenc
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
takyto problem bol aj v brne na plavarni na kravi hore,ktora sa dost podoba na jednu plavaren v insbrucku. no svinstvo prevelke- v cechach ziskala okopcena vec titul...aj tak si mysim ze "vykradnutie" je velmi zle prirovnanie. Architekt sa jednoducho inspiroval a spickovu minimalisticku architekturu posunul o par stovak kilometrov na vychod. :-)totiz v dnesnej dobe je velmi tazke vytvorit nieco co nevytvoril nik pred vami. a pri bytovke akou je modrian to je este o cosi tazsie!

Dátum: 3.11.2005
Od: NASťO
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
ING STEEL NIE JE CISTO OBYTNá BUDOVA

Dátum: 25.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Ja by som tam dal INGSTEEL - alebo tak nejako sa vola.

Dátum: 25.10.2005
Od: nasťo
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
architekt alexy sa urcite nechal az moc inspirovat, ale na druhej strane, co by ste navrhli na cenu ce za ara? mame tu nieco lepsie?

Dátum: 22.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
...no a kedze sme dospeli az sem v nasej diskusii (mam na mysli posledne prispevky), mozno by nebolo od veci aby si to precitali aj "kompetentni" z komory a sasu a vyjadrili sa k tomu. aj ked je toto forum zväcsa anonymne (vsetci zrejme vieme preco), tak sa mi v poslednej dobe zda, ze konecne sluzi tomu, comu ma: totiz diskusii...so vsetkym, co k tomu patri - aj s otvorenou, tvrdou kritikou.

Dátum: 22.10.2005
Od: druhak
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
fuha, tak po precitani tohto fora mam pocit, ze mondrian je naozaj hanba! Ja sa v tom inak moc nevyznam, ale jeden student z VSVU mi minule vysvetloval, ze u nas je taky laxny zakon na ochranu umeleckch diel, ze sa da vykradat prakticky neobmedzene. Neviem, co je na tom pravdy...

Dátum: 21.10.2005
Od: aaale
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
No, na CEZAAR pracovnici komory nahovaraju (osobne som zazil taký atak) architektov, aby sa prihlasili, vacsinou podla priatelstva, alebo podla toho co bolo publikovane .... Jurkovicova cena je specificka tym, ze niekto nahlasi ineho architekta a potom sa z nahlasenych robia nominacie .... ARCH nominuje z toho, co publikoval ... je este nejaka cena?

Dátum: 21.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
aaale, tak nam to povedz - ako sa nominuje ktora cena? cezaar, jurkovic a pod...

Dátum: 19.10.2005
Od: aaale
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
este k tomu aj tie zvasty od diskutujucich, ktori nepoznaju rozdiel medzi cenami :-(

Dátum: 19.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
...plus zabavne na tych cenach je aj to "samonominovanie"....

Dátum: 19.10.2005
Od: vrták
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Pri všetkej úcte k panovi architektovi Grymovi sa obávam, že on nie je kompetentný odpovedať na otázku, podľa akých kritérií hodnotia jednotlivé odborné komisie , stavby ktorým udelujú významné ceny za architektonickú tvorbu na Slovensku.

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: webadmin
Predmet: RE: Janko
Cesky architekt p.Ludvik Grym, predseda poroty CEZAARa, prislubil archinetu odpovedat na niekolko otazok o udelovani cien. Radi sprostredkujeme aj vase otazky. Webadmin si vyhradzuje právo ich vyberu. Prednost budu mat podpisane prispevky. Otazky posielajte na adresu webadmin@archinet.sk, alebo ich piste priamo do diskusneho fora.

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Vrták sa opýtal veľmi dobrú otázku: "Pýtam sa podľa akých kritérií hodnotí odborná porota a rozdáva ocenenia?" Veľmi nepredpokladám, že členovia odbornej poroty čítajú túto diskusiu, ale čo keď predsa? Niekto z tej poroty by mohol povedať k tomu pár slov...

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: curious
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
nie ze nikto nepise kritiku - ved este pisu aj niektori pedagogovia o sebe a svojich ex(studentoch). samozrejme pozitivne. ved aj oni su kopie kopie...

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: anarch
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
kopia kopie:
1. ked uz o tom citani, tak po poznamke "everything is copy of a copy" odporucam precitat nieco od P.Eisenmana (napr. Diagram Diaries). Venuje sa aj problemu figuracie vs. generovane formy, geneticky proces vs. dynamicky...

2. Mne sa ta fasada teda vobec nezda viac fasa ako ta "povodna"...


Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
vrtak - teraz je oceneny RD v Senkviciach, co je presny opak toho v Stupave. pytam sa: je to najlepsi RD na Slovensku za posledny rok?!

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: one
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
kopirovanie takeho skveleho napadu ako ako je strecha od N&R sa mi zda celkom prirodzene. Je to sposob ako efektne ukoncit dom a myslim si ze to nieje posledna kopia. na mondriane to ale vyzera trochu ako moderny parazit postaveny na 30rocnej oblude

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: vrták
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Téma sa zaujímavo rozvíja a tak ma napadá, za aké stavby sa odovzdávajú ocenenia SAS a SKA, myslím nie len architektonické stvárnenie, ale aj kvalitu a trvácnosť architektonického diela spolu s užívatelskou spokojnosťou investora-funkčnosťou. Napadá ma ako príklad rodinný dom v Stupave ocenený Jurkovičovou cenou, ktorý dnes už vôbec neexistuje, lebo investor toto úžasné dielo nechal obratom omietnuť a zatepliť a na architektov ako kastu nenachádza pekné slovo. Nerobíme si sami zlú reklamu keď oceňujeme takto extravagantné diela nepoužiteľné pre svoj primárny účel? Pýtam sa podľa akých kritérií hodnotí odborná porota a rozdáva ocenenia?

Dátum: 17.10.2005
Od: kopia kopie
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
ad.: arch. kritika/teoria

- sa vedie iba vramci kamaratsaftov (dcerenky o architekture svojich oteckov, ludia zo sav preferuju urcitu skupinu architektov atd.)
- architekti vobec necitaju, svata pravda. dokonca nevedia ani pisat. Citat niekedy sprievodne spravy k sutaziam je taka zalost (nielen v ramci syntaxe a spravnosti gramatiky)
- ak citaju, v zasade svoje nazory na anonymnych forach
- na anonymnych forach sa skryvaju najma ti mladi, mudri, skuseni ... citaju najma nazory svoje a sebe blizke

otazky zneju: pre koho pisat? ako pisat, ked architekt nie je schopny precitat vacsie mnozstvo textu? ako mu zdelit informaciu aspon jednu, aby si ju uvedomil? treba z citania archit. kritiky spravit blockbuster?

pozn.: problemom ceny ce za ar je, ze sa tam mozu prihlasit architekti sami, ... architekt Grym povedal /na strankach komory/, ze aj tak sa tie najlepsie diela tam neprihlasili. TAK TOTO UZ JE O COM

pozn.2 : everything is copy of a copy. Mondrian je trochu neskore 80.te, ale fasada je jednoducho viac fasa ako na obytnom komplexe v Sittarde od N&R.

Dátum: 13.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
a cenu by mohol klimkovej a alexymu odovzdat osobne Jan Neutelings :)

Dátum: 13.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
a mame to tu!!! teraz budte mudry, chlapci a dievcata!

Dátum: 13.10.2005
Od: Janko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
punker trafil kliniec po hlavicke! uz sa tesim, ako dnes odovzdaju cenu CEZAAR za Mondrian :-((

Dátum: 12.10.2005
Od: curious
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
kritiku u nas malokto povazuje za dolezitu. a uz vobec robi alebo cita. z vlastnej vole sa v dvoch nasich casopisoch hecuje par ludi, co pise a citaju si to asi len navzajom. architekti viac pozeraju fotky nez citaju texty pri nich, tie sa im zidu v projektoch. najma tu malokto ma nazor, az do chvile, ked je jasne, ze nieco je zle. a ak su tie "lepsie" veci co sa za posledny rok postavili absolutne neoriginalne, nie je to u nas nic nove. takých neoriginálnych vyskoviek VUB alebo oblúkových mostov co nam tu v noci svietia je v cudzine uz 20 rokov plno.

ps.
this discussion started in english, it is unpolite to follow crying in Slovak, dont you think? or Jan speaks Slovak?

Dátum: 12.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
...a teraz si trochu podebatujme o moralke...
ked architekt nieco take spravi/teda bezprecedentne vykradne projekt ineho architekta-podotykam realizovany pred 10timi rokmi, a podotykam nie od hociakeho architekta ale od N+R ,co su vazne autority/, a nikto, vobec nikto sa neozve, ba co viac je tato stavba nominovana na prestiznu cenu SKA, ba co viac architekt Gurtler o nej pise akokeby sa nechumelilo v ARCH och....pytam sa: nesvedci to cele
nielen o moralke Alexyho a Klimkovej, ale aj moralke vsetkych zucastnenych,teda celej architektonickej,vcitane nas co tu pod plastikom anonymity diskutujeme na tuto temu?Nesvedci to absencii akejkolvek fundovanej architektonickej kritiky a architektonickeho diskurzu na Slovensku?
Velmi ,skutocne velmi sa hanbim!!!

Dátum: 12.10.2005
Od: misko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
suhlasim, hranica bola prekrocena...

co ma mrzi najviac, ze tie zmeny ktore oproti holandskemu projektu urobili su k horsiemu.
je to tiez subjektivne, ale otvorene, vyzera stavba z 80teho, vratane tych farebnych zabradli, snad jediny rozdiel je v kvalite pouzitych materialov.

Dátum: 12.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
...pytam sa akurat, kde je ta hranica medzi plagiatom a tvorivym rozvinutim uz pouzitej myslienky...
v tomto konkretnom pripade ,aj ked je to subjektivne si myslim ,ze hranica bola prekrocena/a to smerom k plagiatu/....

Dátum: 11.10.2005
Od: oXmo
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
ako tvrdi architekt zalman, vsetko uz bolo vymyslene..
ale clovek, architekt to musi vediet spravit tak aby to dobre vyzeralo.aj ked su to detaily, ktore uz boli pouzite!

Dátum: 10.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE:duro
....pozri si ten link co par riadkov pod tebou nahodil misko a potom uvidis najvacsi nedostatok :)

Dátum: 10.10.2005
Od: duro
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
za najvacsi nedostatok povazujem nevyuzitie a neprepojenie parteru s jazerom, pohlad od jazera na vstupy do priestorov technickej infrastruktury je dost smutny.

Dátum: 10.10.2005
Od: majster sveta
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
To je ako medzi programátormi:
len blbec programuje - inteligentý to nájde hotové na webe.

Dátum: 10.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
....no a zlaty kliniec vsetkeho bude, ked toto dielo teraz dostane CE.Z.AR.-a

Dátum: 9.10.2005
Od: misko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
a btw:
http://www.archiweb.cz/buildings.php?action=show&id=198&type=3

Dátum: 9.10.2005
Od: misko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
ale notak...
ved to pozname, ziadna novinka, nad tym sa aj zbytocne vzrusovat.
keby to bola aspon podarena kopia, vsakano.

ale to vidim denodenne na skole, ze kto vlastne tu skolu dokonci a koho vyhodia.
kreativita je konieckoncov posledne co vas skola moze naucit...

potom to tak vyzera

Dátum: 9.10.2005
Od: jenifer
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Skuste hodit na net original :-)

Dátum: 9.10.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
... ziadna diskusia sa nerozpuuta?
Ok.Tak nech zije vykradanie!

Dátum: 30.9.2005
Od: pakko
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
Thank you for co-operation Jan, looking forward for tha next one! Agreement with MONDRIAN!

Dátum: 26.9.2005
Od: punker
Predmet: RE: MONDRIAN
bytovy dom PRINSENHOEK,town of Sittard,NL
projekt 1992, realizacia 1995
publikovane napr.v
AT WORK,Neutelings Riedijk Architects,
010 Publishers ,2004 na stranach48-55